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CJC-1295 and the difference between a mechanism and an outcome

Started 20 March 2025 · 20 replies · 238 hearts · read 3.3k times

WellsChester, UK · 20 March 2025
1.3 years ago

Starting a thread on this because it keeps coming up in ones and twos: CJC-1295 and the difference between a mechanism and an outcome

Evidence question. I would rather have an honest "we do not know" than a confident answer.

I have read the paper and I am not sure I have understood it, and I would rather say that than pretend otherwise.

I have a practical question that turns entirely on a technical detail, and I have not been able to get a straight answer to the technical detail.

I want to be careful about how I phrase this because I am not accusing anybody of anything. I am asking what a document actually establishes.

Since I have put a figure in the title I should stand behind it: 1295, exactly, and I checked before posting rather than after.

Thank you for reading. Careful answers welcome; confident ones I can already get elsewhere.

79

MableBolton, UK
#1

What I would flag is that the safety data is the part that is thinnest, and it is the part that matters most.

7

TacitaRome, IT
#2

Coming back to say I read for a year and decided against, and that this circle was where I got the information to decide with.

11

FlossieShrewsbury, UK
#3

I would say if you cannot find a published human study, that is itself the finding rather than a gap to fill with reasoning.

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SunilFacilitatorBirmingham, UK
#4

Thank you for reading the paper rather than the summary. It is more work and it changes what the discussion is worth.

25

IdrisCardiff, UK
#5

Nothing here is a recommendation. This circle exists to be honest about where the evidence runs out, not to fill the gap with confidence.

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AbramAmsterdam, NL
#6

I have nothing to add and I did not want to leave it unanswered.

11

TobinCork, IE
#7

Abram has already said most of this and I want to add the one part that was different for me.

I would gently push back on any post that presents a protocol as established. Almost none of them are.

14

IvorLlanelli, UK
#8

The interaction question is almost entirely unstudied for most of this, and that is worth stating on every thread.

12me too 5

MorayElgin, UK
#9

What surprised me was how much of what circulates traces back to a single small study repeated in a hundred summaries.

12

PolaGdańsk, PL
#10

Picking up Ivor’s point rather than starting a new one.

The dosing discussion in most places online is derived from animal work by arithmetic, and that arithmetic does not do what people think it does.

15me too 6

TamarPlymouth, UK
#11

My approach now is to ask what would have to be true for a claim to hold, and then to look for whether anybody has checked.

14me too 4

NevGrimsby, UK
#12

Building on what Pola wrote rather than answering the original question.

Something practical: I keep a note of what I have actually read on each of these, because otherwise I mistake familiarity for knowledge.

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FabianBasel, CH
#13

No advice, just company. Here if it helps.

11

WellsChester, UK
#14

The most valuable thread in this circle was one where three people said clearly that they had stopped taking something and why.

11

MableBolton, UK
#15

I found the discussion here refreshingly free of certainty, which is not true of anywhere else I have looked.

14

TacitaRome, IT
#16

What I would say to a newcomer is that saying you do not know is welcome here and is not treated as ignorance.

11me too 7

FlossieShrewsbury, UK
#17

Something I got wrong was assuming that because something is discussed everywhere it must have a body of evidence behind it.

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BunnyWeston-super-Mare, UK
#18

Flossie, thank you for that. It gives me somewhere to start from.

My reading of the published record on most of these is that it is early, small and mostly not in people.

12

SunilFacilitatorBirmingham, UK
#19

I want to slow this down. There is a claim in this thread that nobody has sourced, and this is the one circle where that matters most.

13

AbramAmsterdam, NL
#20

What helped me was reading one full paper rather than twenty summaries, because the summaries had all lost the same caveats.

9